Chinese Submarine Stalked U.S. Aircraft Carrier WTF?????

[John Anderson]

Chinese Submarine Stalked U.S. Aircraft Carrier
AP and Reuters, AOL Wire Services

WASHINGTON (Nov. 13) - A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and was undetected until it surfaced within firing range, The Washington Times reported on Monday.
Report say a Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine was seen within five miles of the carrier Kitty Hawk, above, and its accompanying warships on October 26.
The Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine was seen within five miles of the carrier Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships on October 26, the newspaper said, citing defense officials.

The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the U.S. carrier group's planes, the report said.

A Navy spokeswoman in Washington had no comment on the report.

Disclosure of the surprise encounter comes as the commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, Adm. Gary Roughead, was making his first visit to China which began over the weekend, The Washington Times said.

The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, the paper said.

"When asked if the PLA navy is a threat, I've been on the record as saying no," Roughead told reporters. "But I really would like to know what the intent is in some of the developments that I see in the PLA navy."

Washington, which has long complained of a lack of transparency in China's military modernization, has been pressing Beijing to reciprocate by giving U.S. forces more access to Chinese military exercises and sites.


11-13-06 18:03 EST


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[herrmill]

I wonder who got spanked after allowing a diesel sub to come within 5m of one of our carriers without being detected??

Am certain there were a few PLN brass broke out the Maotai to celebrate after that acheivement!

[expfcwintergreen]

From "The Stupid Shall Be Punished"...


USS Kitty Hawk And The Chinese Sub

The Drudge Report has a headline up right now saying: "PAPER: CHINA SUB STALKS USS KITTY HAWK". There's no link yet, and my search of my standard link sources doesn't turn anything up. So, this is pretty much a placeholder until something comes in. Of interest, the USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63), with portions of her Strike Group, just pulled into Sasebo last week as part of their group's "fall deployment". I expect the article will be some breathless claim that a Chinese sub was trailing the carrier. Absent from the article will be any indication that it's not tough at all for a submarine to trail a carrier; what's tough is doing it when they're at a heightened alert level and have a friendly submarine attached to them, without having the friendly submarine ready to take you out at any time.

Staying at PD...

Update 0513 13 Nov: Here's the article, from the Washington Times' Bill Gertz. It's even lamer than I thought; the Song-class diesel boat was spotted on the surface about five miles from the Kitty Hawk. So, either the Chinese were trying desperately to let us know that they could get that close to us, or this is another of a series of attempts by the Chinese to send their submarines farther afield where they just can't seem to stay undetected and/or submerged. Since they have nothing to gain by taunting us like that, I vote for the second option.

For some background: the Chinese were probably interested in checking out preparations for the Annualex 18G exercises taking place south of Kyushu. The media will probably try to make a big deal out of the presence of Asheville and Seawolf in the exercise, and claim that even our vaunted nuclear attack subs couldn't stop the Chinese sub from approaching the carrier. Even if that is true, it's more likely that the subs would have been some distance off, tasked with preparing for the exercise. To re-iterate: any decent diesel boat could approach this close to a carrier during peacetime. This doesn't mean they could do it during periods of heightened tensions. The Chinese Song-class sub is a tiny little 2,250 ton boat that is the first indigenously-designed Chinese boat; it's probably about two generations behind Western or Russian diesel boats.

[Goliat]

OMG. Why is this such a surprise?? A diesel sub is very quit when submerged, even chinese ones.
Diesel sub's from many nations have several times sunk US carriers during exercises. Not a big deal. But in a real conflict i doubt a diesel sub could keep track of a carrier, because of the carrier's speed. Some diesel subs can reach above 20 knots submerged, but not for long time.

[John Anderson]

OMG. Why is this such a surprise?? A diesel sub is very quit when submerged, even chinese ones.
Diesel sub's from many nations have several times sunk US carriers during exercises. Not a big deal. But in a real conflict i doubt a diesel sub could keep track of a carrier, because of the carrier's speed. Some diesel subs can reach above 20 knots submerged, but not for long time.

I guess by this you never served? There is more to then what you posted.
We are talking about a noisy early type deisel here guy not a AIP one. If you ever served on a sub you would realize my shock.

[Goliat]

What do you mean John? Is it the embarrasment you are talking of....?
Like I said, there are many reported examples of US carriers beeing "sunk" by diesel subs in exercises.. Why such a big surprise?
Btw, a diesel with AIP makes just as much noise as a sub without AIP when submerged. AIP only makes it possible for a diesel to stay submerged for longer time. Of course when a diesel operates on the surface with her diesel running, that makes noise.

I doubt this story is true anyway.. The Chinese denies it. (And why would they if this was true? Would prob brag of it in all the papers..) Probably a story inventet in order to make the government pay more money for the Navy...

[DavieTait]

I think what John was saying is that the Chinese subs are 2 generations behind the best the west has. That means less efficient propellors ( more noise ) , less efficient hull designs ( less submerged endurance and again more hull flow noise ) and less efficient noise damping mounts for the motor ( this is what can really project sound into the water if the motor mounts don't dampen the noise then the sub just acts like a big loudspeaker !! )

Yes CVN's have been "sunk" in wargames by AIP SSK's , BUT , don't forget these are the latest design's and are far quieter than any Chinese sub has ever been.

In a time of war an SSK wouldn't get within firing distance of a CVN if the Airboss has his Helo's out using active dunking sonar all the time. One sniff of a target and a torpedo would be dropped end of a few whales sometimes but definately the end of an SSK. I'd doubt that the best AIP SSK in the west ( 212/214 German class for example ) would be able to get any closer in real wartime conditions.

Davie

[Gerwalk]

I'd doubt that the best AIP SSK in the west ( 212/214 German class for example ) would be able to get any closer in real wartime conditions.

Davie

Maybe not in open waters or by a single SSK, but a wolf pack of them in coastal waters (or even on a continental shelf) during the critical stages of a disembarkment or an air attack (if you want to hit inland China you will need to get closer to the coast) could make a mess of carrier group. I remember a book called "Dragon Strike" that was a mix between a novel and a "what-if " geostrategic analysis: a pack of Kilos lurking in shallow waters in the China sea sunk a Tarawa class ship and some of its scorts. Of course only a few of them survived after the attack but their mission was a success.

China is incresing the number and quality of her SSKs and they have no worries about losing some of them in exchange of a carrier...

[Gerwalk]

BTW: Talking about wartime conditions I had the impression that the US was at "war" at this very moment. If so the state of alert of a carrier group should be something better than that (i.e. letting a SSK surface at only a few miles from the carrier)...

[Goliat]

I think what John was saying is that the Chinese subs are 2 generations behind the best the west has. That means less efficient propellors ( more noise ) , less efficient hull designs ( less submerged endurance and again more hull flow noise ) and less efficient noise damping mounts for the motor ( this is what can really project sound into the water if the motor mounts don't dampen the noise then the sub just acts like a big loudspeaker !! )

Yes CVN's have been "sunk" in wargames by AIP SSK's , BUT , don't forget these are the latest design's and are far quieter than any Chinese sub has ever been.

In a time of war an SSK wouldn't get within firing distance of a CVN if the Airboss has his Helo's out using active dunking sonar all the time. One sniff of a target and a torpedo would be dropped end of a few whales sometimes but definately the end of an SSK. I'd doubt that the best AIP SSK in the west ( 212/214 German class for example ) would be able to get any closer in real wartime conditions.

Davie

Not only latest designs of sub which has "sunk" US carriers. You are thinking of the Gotland right? There are others..
Very naive to say that an SSK would never get within firing distance of a CVN in war-time. SSK's are getting better and better, in silencing technology, endurance, weaponloads (greater range/speed and harder to counter) speed etc. Why do you think the US has leased the Gotland for a year now?
Let us say that there are 4-5 SSK. Affordable to loose 3-4 of them if one of them could get a hit on a carrier..

I admit it is hard to get whitin firing range, but not impossible. Not even for a SONG (or 4-5 of them )